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2006 Burton T6?
Obviously you have not read my posts if you continue to ask how do Burton obtain their position being a leader in the industry while overcharging for their products. MS wasn’t just “once upon a time a new kid” MS was the first BIG kid on the block. Just like Burton being the First BIG kid on snowboarding industry. The same might apply to companies like Palmer, possibly Ride and K2(both came after Burton - snowboarding wise), but it definite can’t be apply to companies like Rome, NS, or other none Frontier companies.

The reason why Burton is picked on more than Palmer? Do a search on palmer inquiries and compare it to Burton inquiries, see how many of each inquiries do you get. I’m sure the ratio would be 9:1 in Burton’s favor.

Even up until now you still don’t understand my position on the Burton issue. It clearly shows you are just debating with ME but not the topic. I can’t believe you still have to ask questions as you had at the end of your post. I have nothing against Burton. None of my friends ever tried out for sponsorship. I’ve met Jake in person and he was a nice sincere person.

All of above does not change the fact that Burton is very expansive where I’m from. I’m sure there are many people in my position where Burton is expansive for them as well. You are certainly not one of these people, great for you. But my position on Burton is that if you have to pay a higher price for them, don’t buy them. Look into other companies and see if you can find a similar board at a cheaper price. Now if you can get sick deals for Burton WTF NOT. They make quality items and if you can find them for cheap, why not buy them?

Apparently You dislike me to the point where my words do not register in your head. But from a look of all your posts, I can understand why. All your posts dating back to 2004 has been “pro-burton”. You rarely post on review topics that does not involve burton. And on every Burton topic, you praise the crap outta Burton as if Burton is snowboarding God itself. Alright, that might be exaggerated a bit, but you certainly have a profound love for Burton that I can’t comprehend.

Now to end my last post in this thread I did some number crunching and found the below data. I didn’t bother to do the calculation for more than the TOP 3 snowboarding brand, Palmer, Burton, Ride + Rome. Base on this statistics alone, clearly Palmer and Burton overprices their gear by approximately 8% when compare to their “equal” Ride and approximately 15% when compare to a small guy like Rome. I will continue to post my opinion on Burton’s pricing as I always have.

Average price of Palmer Snowboards with 19 board line up(again excluding highest and lowest price) came out to be 490 dollars. at your ratio of 80% for retail.

Average price of Burton snowboards with 37 board line up(excluding highest/lowest price) came out to be 480 dollars.

Average price of Ride snowboards with 21 board line up(again excluding highest and lowest price) came out to be 450 dollars.

Average price of Rome snowboards with 10 board line up(again excluding highest and lowest price) came out to be 420 dollars.
__________Eric__________
05/06 - Arbor A-Frame (62)
03/04 - Ride Flight Migs
03/04 - Salomon F24

04/05 - Salomon Era (58)

06/07 - Ride DH (55)
06/07 - Ride Beta
06/07 - DC Judge
Reply
Wow Trader - you must not be familiar with MS. Let me fill you in. Once upon a time MS didn't exist. Once upon a time they were the small fish and other OS (operating systems) from IBM (OS/2 Warp), etc dominated the market not MS, so yes indeed the comparison is just a valid for "frontier" companies as it is for big dogs like K2, Burton and Ride. Even the biggest dog starts out as a small puppy. Microsoft started at 0% market share before they gained 90% market share.

As for my supposed 100% pro-Burton posts, obviously you missed the two recent posts where I criticize Burton's "dual board" practice.

http://www.snowboarding2.com/forum/showt...php?t=3810

http://www.snowboarding2.com/forum/showt...php?t=3915

I've also been critical of Burton's lower end bindings. I don't like the silly game they play with the 3d & 2d patents - I can't believe they were even awarded the patents personally. And now they are playing the same game with the toe cap strap, although I find that patent more justified. I got a new set of Flow bindings and guess who is having a Pain in the *** because of a certain company's 3d system and their personal pissing match with the rest of the industy??? I have plenty of problems with Burton.....

Here's where we differ though - the reasoning behind my criticizisms when applied to the industry as a whole don't fall apart like yours. For example, what would happen if I threw in the average price for Morrow boards onto your list - Rome becomes "overpriced." What happens if I throw Lamar and Rage on the list? Rome and Morrow become "overpriced." I can even take a step further and throw the plastic crap boards from target into the mix and call Lamar overpriced. It's faulty logic, yet you stick with it.

All you've really revealed is that Burton and Palmer have 2 higher end, expensive boardsand Ride has 1 higher end/expensive board, which skews their average prices up. And if I threw Lamar into that comparison all that would reveal is that Lamar doesn't have any mid to high end boards and that skews their average price down. It means absolutely nothing in either case. It's a great arguement for Burton makes expensive boards, but holds absolutely no water when it comes to accussing Burton of being overpriced.

BTW - I don't think I saw an answer to a couple of my questions, so I'll repost them:

1) Independant of price isn't the t6 clearly a superior board to the Timeless?
2) How did Burton manage to capture 30-35% market share while overcharging? I have a friend getting his MBA - it would make a great basis for a thesis and a lifetime of extravagant wealth.
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Jimi77 Wrote:1) Independant of price isn't the t6 clearly a superior board to the Timeless?
2) How did Burton manage to capture 30-35% market share while overcharging? I have a friend getting his MBA - it would make a great basis for a thesis and a lifetime of extravagant wealth.
1) Personnally, I don't care for both of these boards...
2) Marketing. That includes sponsorship, advertising, product placement and such. That doesn't mean the products are not good though, but I think Burton is the market share leader more because they have a good marketing team than because the products are better. To me they are among the best in quality but not alone at the top.

And to answer other questions: Burtons are very expensive for what they are here too, Palmer are not better, we don't mention Palmer because, well, I never met anybody riding a Palmer board. I don't care if nothing is comparable to a T6, at that price, I'm not even looking. I usually keep a board for 2 years and will not pay T6 prices every two years.

I have a few Burton products FYI, bindings are good (05 Missions), boots are very good but waaaay overpriced (SL-6, I bought them because they were 60% off) and gloves that ripped apart by themselves after 2 days of riding...

Dan Gerous
: check my blog for snowboarding stuff

DAN.GEROUS.NET
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Jimi77 Wrote:Wow Trader - you must not be familiar with MS. Let me fill you in. Once upon a time MS didn't exist. Once upon a time they were the small fish and other OS (operating systems) from IBM (OS/2 Warp), etc dominated the market not MS, so yes indeed the comparison is just a valid for "frontier" companies as it is for big dogs like K2, Burton and Ride. Even the biggest dog starts out as a small puppy. Microsoft started at 0% market share before they gained 90% market share.

Wow, you must not realize MS dominates the Personal computing market that started in the very late 80s and early 90s. Prior to that, IBM and some other OS were all in the game of Mainframe Servers. MS came into the personal computing

Jimi77 Wrote:Wow Trader - you must not be familiar with MS. Let me fill you in. Once upon a time MS didn't exist. Once upon a time they were the small fish and other OS (operating systems) from IBM (OS/2 Warp), etc dominated the market not MS, so yes indeed the comparison is just a valid for "frontier" companies as it is for big dogs like K2, Burton and Ride. Even the biggest dog starts out as a small puppy. Microsoft started at 0% market share before they gained 90% market share.

Please look closely at the timing of Microsoft’s entry to the market and the personal computing era. Prior to personal computing, most O/S are targeted at mainframe servers; ie IBM… This makes MS a frontier in their industry, the industry of Personal computing. I’m sure you knew that as you are all familiar with MS.

Quote:As for my supposed 100% pro-Burton posts, obviously you missed the two recent posts where I criticize Burton's "dual board" practice.

I believe the title of these 2 posts were “Legit Gripe with Burton”. I’m sure this was inspired by my “non-legit grip with Burton. I'm not even sure if you woulda made the 2 posts if it wasn't for my axe to grind with Burton.

Quote:I've also been critical of Burton's lower end bindings. I don't like the silly game they play with the 3d & 2d patents - I can't believe they were even awarded the patents personally. And now they are playing the same game with the toe cap strap, although I find that patent more justified. I got a new set of Flow bindings and guess who is having a Pain in the *** because of a certain company's 3d system and their personal pissing match with the rest of the industy??? I have plenty of problems with Burton.....

You might have quiet a bit of problem with Burton but it is not shown in your posts. I hardly see you criticize on any board brand. It almost seem that you are too “nice” to criticize. Where I have no problem criticizing any company and every company where I see a problem.

Quote:Here's where we differ though - the reasoning behind my criticizisms when applied to the industry as a whole don't fall apart like yours. For example, what would happen if I threw in the average price for Morrow boards onto your list - Rome becomes "overpriced." What happens if I throw Lamar and Rage on the list? Rome and Morrow become "overpriced." I can even take a step further and throw the plastic crap boards from target into the mix and call Lamar overpriced. It's faulty logic, yet you stick with it.

Are we going through the whole Lamar, 5050, and plastic board thing again? They are 2nd class citizens in the boarding industry. Of course they will have extremely cheap prices and products. Are you saying Rome, or other similar companies are 2nd class citizens in comparison to Burton, Palmer? Is Ride a 2nd Class citizen as well since they are 8% cheaper? If you compare my reasoning thinking these board brands are EQUALS, then you will not bring up the above argument. I guess in your mind, Rome or other non Burton/Palmer companies are not up to par.



Quote:All you've really revealed is that Burton and Palmer have 2 higher end, expensive boardsand Ride has 1 higher end/expensive board, which skews their average prices up. And if I threw Lamar into that comparison all that would reveal is that Lamar doesn't have any mid to high end boards and that skews their average price down. It means absolutely nothing in either case. It's a great arguement for Burton makes expensive boards, but holds absolutely no water when it comes to accussing Burton of being overpriced.

Only 2 higher end expansive boards? Lets see…Burton is 30 dollars higher in average in comparison to Ride. Burton has 37 Boards, multiply that by 30 which equal $1,110.00. Now if the average pricing is only affected by 2 boards, then that would be 550 dollars on top of the average price of 480. The pricing of the 2 boards would value at $1,030.00 each. So basically base on your rebuttal/explanations for the higher average VS RIDE, Burton would have to carry 2 boards at 1030 dollars in order to offset the 30 dollars of higher average. Which I certainly am sure Burton do not carry 2 - 1030 dollar boards. Therefore this must means that there are more than 2 higher end boards(overpriced boards?) Please note I’ve already dropped the highest and lowest price from the average, therefore the 900 dollars is not even involved here. Do your calculation and see exactly how many of Burton boards are consider as higher end, expansive board in order to offset the 30 dollar difference in average.


Quote:1) Independant of price isn't the t6 clearly a superior board to the Timeless?

I agree, Overall performance of T6 is better than Timeless but to me the slight increase in performance does not justified the 28% increase in price; however I’ll agree that this is a matter of opinion.

Quote:2) How did Burton manage to capture 30-35% market share while overcharging? I have a friend getting his MBA - it would make a great basis for a thesis and a lifetime of extravagant wealth.

Burton Capture 30-35% being the FIRST BIG BOY ON THE STREET! I have repeated this enough times just in last 3 posts. They combine quality products, great marketing strategy and with perfect timing they got firm grip on the market shares. They now can get away with many pricing strategies. If Palmer/Ride isn’t around at the time, Burton now I’m sure will have more than 50% market share in North America and close to 75% in some areas of NAM.
__________Eric__________
05/06 - Arbor A-Frame (62)
03/04 - Ride Flight Migs
03/04 - Salomon F24

04/05 - Salomon Era (58)

06/07 - Ride DH (55)
06/07 - Ride Beta
06/07 - DC Judge
Reply
So I found this thread from Google. I was thinking about buying a T6 (bought it) and was looking for some real peoples' experiences with the board. I haven't ridden it yet so I can't comment on how I like it. I will say that after snowboarding for 23 seasons, I've come to appreciate both Burton's amazing warranty and the fact that everywhere there's snowboarding, there's a shop with a box of spare Burton parts. I'm a big guy, I ride hard, and have a bad habit of breaking gear. It's worth the extra money to me to know that I can get things fixed or replaced that night and be back on the slopes the next day.

I also thought I'd chime in and let the price police know that you're doing us more of a disservice than a service by taking a thread so massively off-topic. If you want to debate Burton's pricing strategies or Burton vs. other brands, that's totally cool but do so in a thread where that is the topic. It really isn't helpful for us looking for specific information to have to wade through 9 pages of point-counterpoint thread hijacking to pick out the on-topic information.
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Well, I agree this thread got outta hand. lots of unneccessary debate. However it takes 2 to tango, so i guess the price police and the burton fan boy are to blame. The thread went off topic at the end of page 1, I sure hope you didn't actually read through the entire 9 pages.

I do appreciate you reading/searching through the thread before posting another T6 gear review request. Only if there were more people like you Smile

Anyway,
Cheers!
__________Eric__________
05/06 - Arbor A-Frame (62)
03/04 - Ride Flight Migs
03/04 - Salomon F24

04/05 - Salomon Era (58)

06/07 - Ride DH (55)
06/07 - Ride Beta
06/07 - DC Judge
Reply
Trader97 Wrote:However it takes 2 to tango, so i guess the price police and the burton fan boy are to blame.

True, that. Fan boy, my comment holds for you, too!

And lest I become guilty of being the self-appointed forum police, I will return here to share my thoughts on my new T6 (and the CO2's to go with it) once the snow starts flying.

Fall is always torture. Having the gleaming new board and bindings to tease me isn't making it any easier...
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a2k Wrote:And lest I become guilty of being the self-appointed forum police, I will return here to share my thoughts on my new T6 (and the CO2's to go with it) once the snow starts flying.

I'm back. I've got a half of a season on the T6 under my belt including trips in the northwest, colorado, and BC (and 3 days of cat boarding in 4 feet of fresh powder). In a nutshell, this is the best board I've ever ridden. It's tons of fun because it's so fast and carves so well. The board is amazing on packed, icy, and variable conditions and lets me carve when everyone else is skidding. In powder, it works *okay* if you put the bindings all the way back but you'll need to keep up your speed or the nose will dive.

I posted a review on [URL="http://www.goneboarding.co.uk/Review/Burton-T6/ProductID/3166/ShowProduct.aspx"]goneboarding.co.uk
[/URL] that I thought I'd copy here:

5 of 5, "The Porsche Carrera of Snowboards"


Review Detail
Finally a board designed to ride the way I do! This board is stiff and aggressive and is best enjoyed fast. It holds an edge through anything, carving with a level of precision I've never felt before. It does great on variable cruddy conditions and in wet heavy snow because the board cuts through anything and just holds the turn. It's an amazing feeling. Just thinking about this board makes me want to go riding right now.

This board doesn't like to be skidded around - you've got to carve your turns, so if you are learning, looking for a forgiving ride, into pipes and parks, or sketchy landings don't get a T6. Also, it's an okay powder board if you move the bindings all the way back but it's definitely not designed for the deep stuff. After riding an '07 fish in 100cm of fresh Canadian pow-pow, I'm leaving the T6 at home on powder days.

Strengths
Carves like nothing else on the planet
Great for variable conditions
A dream in steep fast powder

Weaknesses
Keep it out of the park!
No fun in non-steep powder (go get a fish, there's nothing like it on the planet in deep snow)
This board will *kill* you if you're still learning
Expensive (but worth every penny)

Similar Snowboards Ridden
Carves like a carving board but with the versatility of a free-ride board. I don't think there's anything like it.

Hope you all are having a great season!

a2k
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